Superheated heat engines

Discussion on Stirling or "hot air" engines (all types)
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

The definition of superheated and supercooled should be kept in mind or at least known.
Superheat is defined as the amount of heat added to a vapor above its boiling point. Subcooling is defined as the amount of heat removed from a liquid below its condensing point.
The terms apply to refrigerants

To be "superheated" therefore, is relative to the refrigerant in question. That is a refrigerant could become "superheated" at any temperature above the boiling point of the substance. R-11 for example boils at or near "room temperature" 74.9°F

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/ ... d_902.html

Patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4006595A/en
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

I believe the idea of the above patent would be to boil the refrigerant with ambient heat. The resulting expanding vapor would expand through a turbine/generator, causing the vapor to cool and condense as a result of extracting work

The cold condensate would be exhausted to an insulated tank where it could be kept cold (the cold temperature at which it was exhausted from the turbine).

At some point the process would be reversed. The cold tank exposed to ambient heat and the refrigerant boiled to drive a turbine and exhausted into the other, now cold storage tank.

It appears, then, to be a version of ambient heat engine.

There is an interesting version using water boiled under a vacuum.

https://youtu.be/W1K2CMRyDrw

In that demonstration, however, there is no engine or turbine in the line (yet) and so no work being extracted to help cool the vapor as it is being transfered.

Extracting work by expanding the vapor through an engine or turbine would cool the vapor and keep the process going longer.

The cold bath in the demonstration is not insulated, so the ice would eventually melt anyway with or without heat transfer via the condensing water vapor.

I'm curious to see if this Criophorous effect could be duplicated in the "rice engine".

Theoretically if water were boiled in the rice engine to drive out all the air and then the engine completely sealed, some ice applied to the top portion of the engine should cause the water in the engine to boil, allowing the engine to run on room temperature heat.

If the ice were kept insulated from the surrounding ambient heat it could last quite a long while due to the heat entering the bottom of the engine having been extracted as work.

https://youtu.be/i0Frx_bPsT8
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

There is a system that was installed in 2006 and apparently still operating at a remote resort community in Alaska which uses 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane (R-134a), currently a common automotive refrigerant. (Being phased out in new vehicles but still available)

R-134a boils at -15°F at atmospheric pressure.

The resort has geothermal resources (hot springs) but the temperature is only about 160°F. Not hot enough for a geothermal system utilizing steam to power a turbine.

So, they power the turbine with R-134a refrigerant boiled using low grade heat from wells drilled near the springs.

The refrigerant is condensed by means of open air heat exchangers. (The air outside in Alaska is cold enough to condense the R-134a after leaving the turbine)
Resize_20221117_045047_7513.jpg
Resize_20221117_045047_7513.jpg (138.46 KiB) Viewed 2482 times
Resize_20221117_045047_7353.jpg
Resize_20221117_045047_7353.jpg (118.72 KiB) Viewed 2482 times
There is, of course, more to the system than this brief summery, (cold water is sometimes used when ambient air temperatures are too high) and the situation is rather unique, with an abundant supply of low grade geothermal heat from the hot springs and cold ambient air temperatures. However, running an engine on low grade heat from a compost pile, which has been discussed previously here on another thread comes to mind.
Resize_20221117_050518_8778.jpg
Resize_20221117_050518_8778.jpg (112.95 KiB) Viewed 2480 times
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

Not exactly the same thing, possibly, but in searching the internet for information using the keywords "heat engine" + "phase change" and the like, the search engine turned up an old thread in this forum from 2012 on the same or similar subject with some interesting information and video, but didn't go very far at the time.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1168

There is, I think, a difference between a supercritical fluid and a simple phase change fluid, though, I'm not exactly sure about what the distinction is, except it seems that "supercritical" refers to a stable-ish condition at a certain pressure and temperature where a substance is between a liquid and gasous state.

There also seems to be quite a few sites and articles about supercritical CO2 in heat pumps and heat engines as a means of storing renewable energy.
Researchers in Spain have designed a pumped thermal energy storage system that uses supercritical carbon dioxide as a heat pump and a heat engine. The proposed system is claimed to achieve an efficiency of 80.26%
From a very recent article:

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/03/17/ ... heat-pump/


Just scratching the surface on this topic.

I was debating exactly where it would be best to post this as it relates to a couple of other recent threads also:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5483

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5487
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

The paper, on which the above article was based:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4722000737#!

Includes these illustrations of the system:

The heat storage cycle:
Resize_20221120_065525_5694.jpg
Resize_20221120_065525_5694.jpg (49.46 KiB) Viewed 2458 times
Where the CO2 is compressed, which causes it to heat up to over 1000° F and the "reverse" sort of electrical generation cycle:
Resize_20221120_065525_5528.jpg
Resize_20221120_065525_5528.jpg (47.53 KiB) Viewed 2458 times
Where the compressed CO2 is expanded generating electricity, which process takes out the heat/energy with the result that the CO2 cools back down.

The only thing that changes really is the M for motor, presumably, changes to a G for generator.

In other words, I suppose, or it appears, the motor that compressed the air is run in reverse and used as a generator. (Also the turbine becomes a compressor).

This is, essentially a heat pump or refrigeration system.

IMO going supercritical is not really necessary. Phase change in a heat pump is possible by just using, well, phase change. What the advantage might be of maintaining the whole system in a supercritical state at high pressure I don't really know. Not really that high pressure, I think CO2 goes supercritical a little over 1000 psi. A paintball compressor goes closer to 3000 psi but it does tend to put the system outside the DIY domain.

I like DIY so, I might be interested in a similar system but would probably do it a little differently.

For example, a reverse Brayton cycle (which is what this looks like, minus the supercritical element) can use ordinary air with much the same result.

There are also some apparent inefficiencies in the system depicted here, and a modified version is presented later in the paper, but that IMO just introduces needles complications

What is apparent to me, however, as a Stirling engine enthusiast is, this heat "storage" methodology results in a wide temperature differential just sitting there.
matt brown
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by matt brown »

Superheated steam is a fuzzy term, but supercritical steam is not. Supercritical steam is steam above the critical point which is ~3200psi & ~700F (for water). Obviously, these are fairly high values that are costly to achieve, but my favorite take away is that the heat of vaporization for water is ~2x all the heat required to get from water, through two phase region, to critical point !!! Thus, those cooling towers at any steam plant are wasting mega energy.

In distant past, there were a few binary power plants that used a cascading scheme were a primary mercury cycle was superimposed on a conventional steam cycle. Yep, the waste heat from the mercury cycle was used to supply the input to the steam cycle, thereby raising overall efficiency. An extra bonus of this scheme was that clever design could further increase conventional efficiency by eliminating the mercury side feed pump by condensing mercury at height. However, the few mercury binary plants of the 1920s fell out of favor during the 1930s due to the depression (and rise of safety concerns).

Guys, chasing anything steam is best left for formal engineers who dream Mollier charts. This type of stuff is waaaay beyond any DIY with many deadend rabbit holes that are counter intuitive.
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

matt brown wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:09 pm (...)
Guys, chasing anything steam is best left for formal engineers who dream Mollier charts. This type of stuff is waaaay beyond any DIY with many deadend rabbit holes that are counter intuitive.
"Anything steam" ? Guys ? Are you serious ?

I'm begining to think you are in here Mat, simply to obfuscate confuse and derail.

Don't know how many times I've had to strain to make any sense of your rambling and no, it's not because I'm "lacking in engineer speak".

I doubt anybody in here finds "anything steam" too far over their head or difficult to comprehend. Quite a few members build steam engines, specialize in HVAC etc.

And no, I do not know you from some Yahoo! board.

I generally try to be polite and tolerant and try to sort through the gibberish and try to make some kind of coherent, sensible, productive conversation from it, but that can be rather exhausting and time consuming and generally non productive. So, today, sorry, but I just can't be bothered.

"Fuzzy" seems to be one of your favorite words, every topic in here is "fuzzy" apparently.
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

Sorry for being a bit harsh, but I guess I'm a pretty big advocate of the KISS philosophy

Keep it simple -

I try to simplify, simplify simplify. Boil it down to the bare essentials.

What does a heat engine cycle consist of?

You have some substance gas or liquid in a sealed container with a movable barrier of some kind.piston solid or liquid or flexible diaphragm

Add heat so the substance expands with or without phase change doing work driving the piston.

The work output causes the expanded fluid to use up the energy cooling and contracting and so returning to the starting condition.

You seem very knowledgeable about a lot of obscure points. Cascading mercury systems, Kalina system,
the patent itself is what 200 pages, whatever, and throw all this out in a confusing jumble and declare see, it's too difficult, too complicated for you uneducated peons to comprehend, give it up, leave it to the experts, seasoned engineers.

Well I like tenbitcomb's approach. Here's something absurdly simple that anybody can throw together. A "rice" engine.

A tin can, some fluid, a diaphragm and some heat and we have a heat engine. Pretty much the whole kalina cycle in a can, or pretty much any other heat pump heat engine cycle reduced to it's simplest form.

You aren't encouraging anybody your being discouraging, don't try this at home kids.

I'm tired of your condescending attitude deliberately trying to confuse and complicate things.
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

This is an interesting article that depicts Tesla's "Self Acting Engine" as a kind of reverse Rankine cycle:

https://medium.com/predict/teslas-self- ... aeaf06451e

I don't think that that is entirely correct but is at least on the right track. The resemblance between the diagrams in that paper and the above diagrams of a CO2 engine are pretty obvious.

This page also does not credit the person I believe is the original author.

The guy who actually published this article years ago was this guy:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6lLXvOodPlo

Maybe Weichao Xia is a pseudonym?
dlaliberte
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by dlaliberte »

Thanks for posting the talk by Peter Lindemann. He came up with a design very similar to what we were talking about, I.e. integrating a heat pump with a heat engine.

Here is another video you may know about, which appears to be confirming some of your arguments.
https://youtu.be/hm8m_0rzyMo
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

dlaliberte wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:46 pm Thanks for posting the talk by Peter Lindemann. He came up with a design very similar to what we were talking about, I.e. integrating a heat pump with a heat engine.

Here is another video you may know about, which appears to be confirming some of your arguments.
https://youtu.be/hm8m_0rzyMo
Right, the other gentleman in the video is Peter Lindemann.
Resize_20221122_050359_9266.jpg
Resize_20221122_050359_9266.jpg (110.96 KiB) Viewed 2403 times
We've been corresponding on and off-line from time to time since 2011.

Unfortunately, Lindemann's partner, (with the hat) wants stuff behind a paywall. That was supposed to be an "open source" project. Now it's - Hurry and get your tickets! Tends to slow down progress IMO.

On the other hand, such projects have to be financed somehow.
dlaliberte
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by dlaliberte »

I watched several more of their their, and this one is perhaps the best one to understand what he is doing.

https://youtu.be/ysCV3dbzzWE

Seems like he's got several possible practical products that could come out of this that could help fund the effort further.
dlaliberte
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by dlaliberte »

I watched several more of their videos, and this one is perhaps the best one to explain what he is doing.

https://youtu.be/ysCV3dbzzWE

Seems like he's got several possible practical products that could come out of this that could fund the effort further.
dlaliberte
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by dlaliberte »

Lol, not sure how I posted twice, but that's better than losing a post. Can't figure out how to delete one.

In terms of product ideas, and related to the subject of the thread, this machine converts air pressure or the opposite, a vacuum, in the context of a heat difference, into mechanical force, and then to electromagnetic force. Change of state is involved as well, from liquid to gas, and back. So the temperature difference needed to make that transition under varying pressure, is very relevant.

So what products could use those conversations. I'm assuming it works in reverse as well. Can we generate a significant heat difference from electric power and do it more efficiently than by other means?
Tom Booth
Posts: 3314
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: Superheated heat engines

Post by Tom Booth »

Well, maybe.

A heat pump that uses a saturated fluid in a vacuum to heat your house ? Might work.
Post Reply